Kim Nguyen Wants to Know How to Become a Lawyer With No Law Degree

Below is a comment from Kim Nguyen. Most of her questions were already answered in the original post of how to become a lawyer with no law school. However, I will see what I can do about answering

Dear Michael,


My name is Kim Nguyen, I read your blog http://becomingalawyerwithoutlawschool.blogspot.com/2006/12/how-to-become-lawyer-without-law-school.html. I am extremely interested in becoming a lawyer without attending law school and be enrolled in the California State Bar Law Office Study Program. I also read that there was only 80 students who enrolled in this program. Just a little about me, I graduated HS in 2003 and started my career in real estate in 2004 so that I would be able to afford my college tuition and not be completely broke after I graduated college. And I was unwilling to trade my time to get paid only $7/ an hour. After my first year of Real estate I liked it so much and put my schooling in the back burner. I got my Broker's license in January 2008 and opened my own real estate corporation in August 2008. I still have a passion for law and want to still become a lawyer one day. I ran into your blog and was really excited about this program. I have browsed through the California Bar and wanted to see if you can help me do what you did. I appreciate you reading my letter, and look forward to hearing from you.

My Response: Honestly, most everything is already in the original blog. As far as helping you do what I did, all I can do is give you a firm statement and example that you can do it. Yes you can.

In order to be on the LOSP, you need a lawyer to teach you who has been in practice at least 5 years. I am only in about 4 years, so I simply cannot teach you.

I read on your blog that I would have to contact the lawyer in the field of law that I want to be in.

Does the lawyer who I study under only needs to have 5 years of experience? Is there any other requirements?

If the lawyer who is willing to help me with this program does not have any experience can he/she still do it?


How do I take the CLEP exam ?

Once I pass that how many hours in a month must I study with the lawyer? Are there specific tests that the lawyer must adminstered to submitt to the California Bar. If so how where can we get this information?


Thanks for your help.

You don't need to contact a lawyer in the field you want to be in, unless that is what you want to do. You can study under any qualified lawyer.


To take the CLEP, I recommend you get a crash course such as Barrons, and then take it ASAP, unless you already have a BA, BS, or equivalent.


Yes I believe it was 18 hours per week of actual study and 6 hours required in the presence of the lawyer.

As far as tests go, the lawyer has to create the tests. There are no canned tests.

How to Become a Lawyer with no Law School.

Edgar Wants to Be A Lawyer With No Law School or College

Below is a post from Edgar about becoming a lawyer with no law school in Illinois.

I have a high school but I want to go law school but I dont have no money and I have a kid on its way, but I seen your web site and it says no college neede how can I get started what do I need to be a criminal lawyer how can I get started or who can I talk too to know more about this? This is Edgar Martinez I live in chicago illinois please contact me at my email lauranedgar@yahoo.com or call me at (Deleted)

My response is as follows: Edgar, I want to say that you are going to first need some basic English grammar and writing skills that are not present in your e-mail above to me.

Next, once you master basic English spelling and sentence structure, you will need to contact your state bar in Illinois and try and find out from them what their rules are.

How to Become a Lawyer with no Law School.

Challenges Faced in Becoming a Lawyer Without Law School

Below is a recent e-mail from Latasha seeking information about the challenges in becoming a lawyer with no law school degree. I will respond at the end as best as I can. Obviously, this response is exclusive to California, as I have no real knowledge as to other state's offering apprenticeship methods with respect to "reading for the law".

Ms. Carter
to michael

Hi MIchael my name is Latasha Carter and I'm currently taking the CLEP test because I won't (sic.) to be a lawyer its my dream and my goal to help change the world and fight for people who do not have a voice or the will to fight my area of practice that I am highly interested in is criminal defense but I also want to be a prosecutor.

My question for you is what are the challenges you faced becoming a lawyer without law school, can a laywer (sic.) be a prosecutor and a defense attorney is it possible, can a lawyer without a degree be just as successful as a lawyer with a degree, what study books can I read to prepare myself for the baby bar and the big bar.

Thank you , I know you get a lot of questions but this is something very dear to my heart I've never wanted something so much and to be a lawyer is something I have my heart set on
once again Thank you

Q: what are the challenges you faced becoming a lawyer without law school?

A: Let me qualify this a little. I became a lawyer with no law school degree. I was admitted into law school without having to take the LSAT because I had passed the Baby Bar with no formal legal education.

That having been said, the biggest challenge I had was the ordeal of having to clerk for an attorney and not get paid, and then working in a Home Depot. at night for 10 bucks an hour. Other challenges were all the naysayers who kept telling me how I would never get a job, that I couldn't possibly be smart enough to pass the Bar with no law school degree, etc.

The funny thing is, I make more than those very same people who still work for firms like Lewis Blah Blah and Gibson Dunce and Blah Blah, so my revenge was proving them all wrong. There were more challenges, but being a Marine, it was nothing compared to basic training.

Q: can a laywer (sic.) be a prosecutor and a defense attorney?

A: Not simultaneously as far as I know. I think most City, District, State and Federal Prosecutors would not be too thrilled about a prosecutor defending alleged criminals. I am sure the State Bar would not be too thrilled either.

Q: can a lawyer without a degree be just as successful as a lawyer with a degree?

A: Absolutely. In fact, there are many famous people who became lawyers with no law school.

Q: what study books can I read to prepare myself for the baby bar and the big bar?

A: I used the Conviser Mini Review, the PMBR audio CD's, West's "In a Nuthshell", and a few others I cant remember. But even more important, was seeing Paul Pfau at Cal Bar Tutorial Review. He was a life coach, not just a tutor. Don't even waste your time with Bar Bri and what not. Just buy the books and learn the black letter law. Then see Pfau to learn how to write and spot issues. It's a problem solving speed exam, so learn from the best.

Law Office Study and Marketability as an Attorney

Below is a comment from a person about the Law Office Study Program ("LOSP") and marketability as an attorney. Her law professor warned her that she may have a hard time getting work without a law school degree, or that she won't be taken seriously if she pursues the LOS. All I can say is those who can do and those who can't teach. I am doing very well as a California injury lawyer. Better than many lawyers I know. This is because I am a go getter, so model yourself after someone like me and you'll do just fine.

If you want to follow the so called "traditional model" and work for someone else (e.g., make someone else rich), then do what your law professor implies. :-)

Michael,

I found your blog about becoming a lawyer without law school. I have
some questions, and I hope you can at least point me in the right
direction.

I started at law school in ****, but I left after one semester
b/c of personal issues. I had stellar grades through undergrad and law school, as well a good LSAT score. I have no doubts about my ability to pass the mini-bar and bar.

Now I am getting ready to return to school in January, but my boss
wants me to do the LOSP. He is willing to supervise me and works in
my field of law.

Below is an email from one of my old professors, and his
concerns reflect mine: marketability. Will a resume without a law
school (not to mention a top 20 law school) seriously hurt me
professionally? I realize that you are successful now, but you also
seem to be a diamond in the rough. I don't have aspirations to work
at a huge firm, I just want to support my family and make a decent
living.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: what if i don't go back to law school?
To: ****************


I don't know. I don't know of anyone who has gone the apprentice
route. My main concern would be marketability. While you may not
want a big law firm job, many other possible employers would also
likely refuse to consider a candidate that didn't go to law school.
You may cut yourself off from many potential non-big firm jobs. My
guess is that most people who go down that apprentice path are people
who don't have the option to go to law school (i.e., no grades/no LSAT
scores/no admission into accredited schools). I would think that many
employers would assume you went down that path for similar reasons.

That said, it would obviously be cheaper in the short run. But I'd
just be somewhat concerned about what kind of job you might be able to
land after passing the bar if you had no law school on your resume.

Law Office Study Question From China About How to Become a Lawyer With No Law School

Below is a recent e-mail I received from a student studying abroad in Communist China. I asked permission of the poster, Mr. Yerger, and will respond to the question in advance as follows:

Yes, so long as you have the equivalent of two years college, or take and pass the CLEP, you are eligible to read for the law in California. Whether or not the committee of bar examiners will accept an LLM from China is an open question. I would contact Nathalie Hope at the California State Bar.

Even if it is not acceptable, just purchase the CLEP crash course books and take the CLEP exams required for admission to LOSP. You should have no problem acing the CLEP with your high level of education.

Michael Ehline,

I had recently read your article on taking the Bar w/o having a JD.
I am currently living in China and have been for 4 years now. I have high level of Chinese language ( speak , read , write)and am studying for my LLM(in Chinese business Law) in Chinese University of Hong Kong (CUHK). I am looking to do exactly what you have stated in your article.

I also have an opportunity to "read law" at a firm in Shenzhen, China that deals with WFOE, joint venture companies doing business in China.

In your opinion, obtaining a LLM from CUHK and "Reading law" you think will be enough to pursue the Bar? From your article, it seems so.

This Fast track in appealing to me, as i am 28 now and only recently became financially stable to work on these things.

Thank you for your time,

Jamon Yerger
2008-09-27
ABLE Batteryhttp://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=4396264901332239949&postID=6927049937924501222
International Purchase Manager
+86 13670191120
深圳福田天安数码城（期二）
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Shenzhen, China 518110

Just keep in mind that you will still need to clerk for four years UNDER A CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY, while you are reading for the law in California.
How to Become a Lawyer with no Law School.

The CLEP and Law Office Study

The CLEP is only required if you do not have the equivalent of a AA degree. At least when I took the exam those were the rules.

Follow Up On What Attorneys Teach Law Office Study in California

Thank you for reading my blog about how to become an attorney in California. I am receiving an inordinate number of calls from people asking where they can find a lawyer to teach them on the LOSP. Although my blog covers that, people still insist on telephoning me and it is getting out of control. Please be advised. Send e-mails, call law firms, and make it happen for yourself.

Learn self reliance and get your name out there. That is what I did. I wish you the best in your journey to becoming a lawyer without law school. newspersonal injury attorney los angeles

Follow Up On What States Offer the Law Office Study Program

I am getting lots of calls and e-mails about what states offer the Law Office Study Program. My information is limited to California only. If you read the original blog post, you can see the states I was aware of that were offering the program at that time.


How to Become a Lawyer with no Law School.

How to Become a Lawyer Without Law School or College

I am Michael P. Ehline. Check out my Los Angeles personal injury attorney blog here. I am one of about 64 attorneys in California who passed the Baby Bar Exam with no higher education and General Bar Exam with no law degree, on the California State Bar Law Office Study Program (LOSP). Learning how to become a lawyer with no law school degree is no simple task, but it's do-able. Prior to learning about becoming a lawyer on the California State Bar Law Office Study Program I had no college other than basic German, basic French, and some typing lessons . This article on how to become an attorney without college training or a law school degree is not intended to be a law school bible. This is simply one man's story of becoming a California criminal defense and personal injury consumer attorney in California by "reading"for the law on the California State Bar - Law Office Study Program.

VideoJug: Michael Ehline



State Bar Law Office Study Program without a law school degree, or a college degree by taking the CLEP and then passing the California First Year Law Student's Examination (aka "Baby Bar"). Passing the Baby Bar qualified me to sit for the California Bar Examination three (3) years later.

Some of the People and Organizations Responsible for Helping Me Become a Lawyer Without Law School Degree and Becoming an Attorney Without a College Degree on the Law Office Study Program

At the outset, I want to thank Nathalie Hope at the California State Bar Law Office Study Program for all of her help in administering my Law Office Study experience. I also want to thank all of my supervising attorneys who made it possible for me to try and become an attorney without law school as follows: Jeff Price, Dave Olan, Patrick Milne and Otto Haselfhoff, who agreed to teach me the law in a law office. I want to thank Paul Pfau at Cal Bar Tutorial Review for teaching me how to take and pass the Baby Bar with no law school or college degree and to take and pass the California General Bar Exam with no law degree (aka Juris Doctorate). Last, a shout out to Travis Wise. His excellent free law outlines and suggestions on books, such as Emanuel's Multi States, were a big time help!

Dedicated to the U.S. Marine Corps. and Mustang Officers

I also want to dedicate this article to the organization that instilled in me the spirit and discipline to become a lawyer without law school degree or college degree as follows: Chesty Puller, the U.S. Marine Corps. - the nations most elite fighting force - and all mustangers who came up through the ranks of civilian and military life without law school or college. I am a mustang lawyer. Ooorah to the mustangs!

How Can I Become an Attorney Without Law School? [Too Good to be True?]

You too can become an attorney with no college or without setting foot in law school in California, and several other states. There are probably a lot of folks out there who insist you need law school or college to be an attorney.

There are a few states like California who disagree and instead think that you should be able to become a lawyer without law school. Although the ABA discourages letting you become an attorney with no law school (e.g., learning law in a law office), this was in fact the traditional way to become a lawyer until the creation of expensive law schools like Harvard, in the 1800's.



Dangers of American Bar Association (ABA) Resistance Against Allowing Qualified Bar Candidates to Become a Lawyer With No Law School



Many people feel the American Bar Association ("ABA") is a cadre of elitists who know better than you. This would explain why the ABA apparrently thinks classroom education by a professor is better than real life experience.

Most states have apparrently surrendered to the the ABA, as they have disallowed "reading" for the law under the traditional apprenticeship methods. But because little is known about these programs and since many with traditional law degrees [paying sometimes $100,000 or more] thumb their noses at the original method, few people actually are involed in Law Office Study at a given time.

Since 1980, 436 people have registered for the apprentice program — known as law office study — with the State Bar of California and only 64 have passed the bar exam. Bar officials estimate that fewer than 30 people are pursuing the program at any given time. (Source LA Times)

The American Bar Association's ABA Code of Recommended Standards dictates that: "neither private study, correspondence study or law office training, nor age or experience should be substituted for law school education."(ABA Standards)

Thankfully, you can still take the Bar Exam with no law school or college in a few states. In California, you can pass the bar exam with no law school or college at all.

What States Allow You to Become a Lawyer Without Law School?

As far as I am aware, seven states in the U.S. allow reading for the law without law school as follows (Source):

California;

Maine;

New York;

Vermont;

Virginia;

Washington;

Wyoming.

Although this article focuses of California, a few of the above states have basic educational requirements prior to admission into the Bar. In California, this is known as the Law Office Study Program.

California:

"Applicants who obtain legal education by . . . law office study must have four years of law study and take an examination after their firstyear. Applicants who pass the examination within three consecutive administrations of first becoming eligible to take it will receive credit for all law study completed to the date of the examination passed."

Maine:

"Applicants may have . . . completed 2/3 of graduationrequirements from an ABA-accredited law school and within 12 months after successful completion pursued the study of law in the law office of an attorney in active practice of law in Maine on a full-time basis for at least one year . . . ."

New York:

"Law office study permitted after successful completion of one year at an ABA-approved law school."(See also)

Vermont:

"Four-year law office study program; must have completed three-fourths of work accepted for a bachelor's degree in a college approved by the Court before commencing the study of law"

Wyoming:

"Law office study permitted as a structured course comparable to 2 years at an ABA-approved law school Prior approval of independent study required."

No special requirements are needed to become an attorney without law school in Virginia or Washington as far as I could determine.

All of the above information came from the "Comprehensive Guide to Bar Admission Requirements 2004," published by the National Conference of Bar Examiners and American Bar Association Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar. (Source)

Famous American Lawyers, Presidents and U.S. Supreme Court Justices who Became Attorneys Without Law School


Law Office Study is how Abraham Lincoln and many other famous lawyers became attorneys.They learned by doing. The fact is,most lawyers "read" the law from Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England and then were questioned by a panel of judges, not by a Bar Exam at all. The Bar Exam was later created to establish a way to standardize the study of law. Of all the below jurists, only one took some law school courses.

1. Patrick Henry (1736-1799), member of the Continental Congress, governor of Virginia;

2. John Jay (1745-1829), first chief justice of the Supreme Court;

3. John Marshall (1755-1835), chief justice of the Supreme Court;

4. William Wirt (1772-1834), attorney general;

5. Roger B. Taney (1777-1864), secretary of the treasury, chief justice of the Supreme Court;

6. Daniel Webster (1782-1852), secretary of state;

7. Salmon P. Chase (1808-1873), senator, chief justice of the Supreme Court

8. Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865), president;

9. Stephen Douglas (1813-1861), representative, senator from Illinois;

10. Clarence Darrow (1857-1938), defense attorney in Scopes trial of 1925. [Clarence Darrow went to law school for one year, and preferred to study law on his own. He received most of his legal education in a law office in Youngstown, Ohio.]

11. Robert Storey (b. 1893), president of the American Bar Association (1952-1953)

12. J. Strom Thurmond (b. 1902), senator, governor of South Carolina

13. James O. Eastland (b. 1904), senator from Mississippi Wallechinsky, David, "The Book of Lists," 1977 (Web Source)

Importance of the Bar Exam Iteslf - ABA Resistance to Law Office Study - Is the Law Office Study Program in Danger of Extinction?

I personally feel that the Bar Exam is a helpful way to measure acceptability to the Courts via the California State Bar. I disagree with the ABA that people should not be allowed to take the Bar without law school. I equally disagree that people shouldn't be allowed to pass the Bar Exam without college or law school, who are otherwise qualified.

I created this blog to discuss the Law Office Study Program in other states besides California, as well as California, to help motivate people less fortunate who would otherwise be excellent attorneys. I also created this blog because I am fearful the California State Bar, and other out of State Bars will eliminate this valuable program of study in a law office. This is due in large part by pressure from the ABA to standardize the study of law in their bureaucratic image. There is another path to success other than law school.

Consumer and citizen awareness about the California State Bar Law Office Study Program is very important. We need to keep the Law Office Study Programs alive and we should also expand upon them in other states. The Law Office Study Programs are the last vestige of old America and its entrepreneurial spirit.

Law Office Study in California, A Brief Overview:

The Bar Candidate must first have the equivalent of an AA degree.

The Bar Candidate will need to score high on the CLEP if he does not have college. (College Level Equivalency Program). [This is what I did]

The Bar Candidate must take and pass the California State Bar First Year Law Students Exam (FYLSX) (aka "Baby Bar Exam") within the first three (3) attempts, or he or she will only receive credit for law office study for the first year and not for the study when retaking the Baby Bar the previous three (3) attempts.

The Bar Candidate must study under a judge or lawyer for four (4) years, being tested once per month by a supervising judge or attorney.

The Bar Candidate must take and pass the California State Bar General Bar Exam and pass it.

The Bar Candidate will probably know enough to immediately go into practice without having to work in a sweat shop defense firm or something like it, because he or she will already know as much about the area of practice he or she studied under as a seasoned four (4) year attorney.

Tips:

Study law under an attorney who practices in the field of law that you want to practice in once you pass the Bar Exam. You will always have work when you finally pass the Bar Exam. This equals freedom!

Cal Bar Tutorial Review - Paul Pfau the Legal Guru Tutor (CBTR):

Contact Paul Pfau at Cal Bar Tutorial Review and learn how to write for the Bar Exam. Paul Pfau is the law guru who taught me how to pass the Baby Bar with no college and to pass the California State Bar Exam with no J.D. If I could become a California lawyer - the hardest bar exam in the nation, bar none - with no law school degree with Paul Pfau's help, so can you. Paul Pfau was my law school bible.

Other Questions or Comments, Please send Los Angeles personal injury attorney, Michael Ehline a question or comment and he will check in when he is not in trial or deposition and get you the answer. You may also go to the Ehline Law website to learn more about becoming an attorney with no law school - degree, or becoming a lawyer with no college: http://www.ehlinelaw.com/

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